Capitoline Museum - Roman coins

[ahala]

I read on another list that the Capitoline museum is selling genuine Roman coins in their shop on the Campodoglio. 45 euros, for a nice late Roman bronze. There are several coins for sale, and I presume that when they are sold, more will be made available. Although the coins do not sound very important, I think that is very interesting that an Italian museum is selling Roman coins, considering all the efforts being made to restrict the sale of ancient coins in Italy. Does anyone know more about this? Is it a policy of the museum, or an accidental choice by the people who run the Museum Shop?

[Massenzio]

I've never heard that "musei capitolini" sells coins, It sounds strange to me.

[Druso Galerio]

Really strange..!!!

[ahala]

It is certainly true. Here was the message:

"yesterday I was at the Capitoline Museum in Rome, and I kid you not, they were selling guaranteed ancient coins in their locked case The two coins I saw were a Licinius follis and a Constantine "eyes to God" follis. They were 45 euros each. They were the real deal. I bought the Constantine, even if it was a bit overpriced! Will post pictures when I return from Italy. ... No export permit, but I do have my Capitoline Museum receipts. And there was no way the lady who unlocked the cabinet (who seemed to be the manager) could have thought I was Italian since the transaction was conducted in English and the purchase made with my American Express card."

Modificato 26 Luglio, 2013 da ahala

[snam]

I have been the last month in Capitoline Museum Book Shop and I have not seen no roman coins. I belive that it is very strange.

[ahala]

It is strange, but I certainly believe the person who wrote this message, who is an experienced coin collector. He bought the coin yesterday, and got a receipt. He also thought it was very strange.

Of course, for me this is fine. It's no problem if museum shops start to sell genuine coins. But it is surprising!

[snam]

@@ahala

Hi,

I will go to Rome in August (may be) and in september. I will check, I will inform you. For me, it is a good idea..... :good:

Modificato 26 Luglio, 2013 da snam

[numizmo]

I've never heard that "ANY Italian Museum" sells authentic ancient coins,stock's ancient coins are not property of the museums but of the Italian state and it's not possible to sell it in any way. .

[cliff]

If it is confirmed it's a very important news for Italy, thanks Andrew. Someone from Rome can check and confirm?

[g.aulisio]

Dire che lo shop di un museo (normalmente un'attività commerciale autonoma e data in gestione a privati) vende monete antiche non è esattamente la stessa cosa che dire che il museo stesso venda monete antiche. Men che meno che le venda traendole dalle proprie collezioni...

Comunque una notizia curiosa.

[rick2]

le avran prese da qualche dealer a 3 euro l una e le venderanno al furbo di turno a 45 euro..........

costantino a 45 euro........

dai........

sarà un qualche negozio all interno del museo

certo che sarebbe divertente vista la vostra battaglia per certificati e regolamentazione se questa notizia fosse vera..........

they saw him coming......

Modificato 26 Luglio, 2013 da rick2

[rick2]

anche davanti al british museum c è un negozio di monete , ma è roba per turisti !

[snam]

@@rick2

All'interno del museo non c'e' nessun negozietto, il museo e' strutturato come tutti i musei italiani. Bookshop e basta. Ci sono stato un mese fa, ho chiesto dei testi di numismatica romana ma non avevano niente al di fuori dei testi di Leoni. Non ho visto nessuna moneta.

[rick2]

boh a me pare strana tutta la storia......

dai 45 euri per un costantino in poi :)

[ahala]

I see no reason to disbelieve the person who wrote the original message. I know him a long time from online discussion, and his description of the sale was very detailed and convincing (unless it is a very elaborate joke), and he also says he has a sales receipt from the Capitoline Museum. But some people here seem not to believe him. So I don't think we can wait until September to find out more. By September the shop may have different things for sale, as it seems there was only a couple of coins for sale this week. The original author (a reliable coin collector) wrote that there was a second coin, a follis of Licinius, which he did not buy. So it should still be there. Perhaps someone in Rome can go to the Capitoline Museum bookshop tomorrow morning, Saturday, and ask if there are any genuine ancient coins for sale. I suspect that the proprietor of the bookshop may have brought a few coins in to sell, perhaps without thinking too much.

Modificato 26 Luglio, 2013 da ahala

[numizmo]

I'm still doubtful about the Whole story, anyway Italian museum cannot sell duplicates of their collections, so, if the Bookshop owner has decided to sell real ancient coins thei should become from outside market and not from the museum's properties

[rick2]

ahala

if they charge you 45 euros for a constantine you d better not buy there

you can get republican denarii cheaper elsewhere !

[ahala]

I have now seen the receipt. It reads:

MUSEI CAPITOLINI

ZETEMA SRL

ROMA PIAZZA DEL CAMPODOGLIO SNC

P.IVA 05625051007 RM

PALAZZO DEI CONSERVATORI

MONETE ORIGINAL

EURO 45,00

The rest of the receipt is details of the payment.

I have also seen the coin. It is a genuine ancient coin, a bronze of Constantine in a blue felt-lined box ("etui") with a printed description in Italian. At the end of the description is the words

"Si garantisce l'autenticia della moneta"

I am surprised that not everyone believes my story (do you really think I invent this??), but anyone who really doubts me could check the VAT number (P.IVA) against the company who runs the shop of the Capitoline Museum. For sure they are selling genuine ancient coins. So maybe we should discuss if it is a good idea (or what the price should be!)

[ahala]

This is the website of the company which runs the Capitoline's museum shop:

http://www.zetema.it/

[g.aulisio]

Questione delicata... http://www.zetema.it/societa/

È di fatto la società a cui il Comune di Roma ha affidato la gestione dei beni culturali... Chissà che ne pensano al MIBAC.

[Paleologo]

This is definitely quite susprising. Zetema is a limited liability company, although fully owned by the City of Rome (this is a rather common workaround for Italian public administrations to carry out for-profit activities). Current Italian law states that ancient coins (any ancient objects, by the way) that are State property are part of the "patrimonio indisponibile dello Stato" (in other words, they absolutely cannot be sold). This means, either the museum bookshop is reselling coins that have been legally bought on the market (which is, again, surprising because of the context, but otherwise perfectly legal and feasible, in my opinion) or the company is carrying out a gross misdemeanor. It would be interesting to see if the certificate of authenticity also says anything about "lecita provenienza". I concur it would be also interesting if something can be at the Capitolini and have a check.

[ahala]

Of course one late Roman bronze, value 5 euro, in a nice blue box with a certificate to justify a price of 45 euro, is not the same as a Dekadrachm of Akragas. But maybe next week they will start selling Roman Republican denarii. And after that, gold aurei. And then some nice silver coins from Magna Graecia. I hope so.

[ahala]

It would be interesting to see if the certificate of authenticity also says anything about "lecita provenienza".

No. The only attestation is.

Monete Original, Si garantisce l'autenticia della moneta.

I have a photograph of the coin in its box, the certificate, and the sales receipt (the purchaser of the coin asked me not to post the images, but I have given all the important details)

Modificato 27 Luglio, 2013 da ahala

[acraf]

Very interesting! I did not know of the sale of original coins in the Capitoline Museum. Now I am out Rome for holidays and on my return, at the end of August, I'm going to see the bookstock of Zetema.
In any case it is a structure inside and of the property of a municipality and not of the Italian State. They are indeed a policy conducted by a civic museum, that has its own autonomy.
I would like to know the thought of the Ministry and I knew nothing when I went to find a senior official of the ministry.
On that occasion, however, he have mentioned problems of a common policy for the protection of archaeological and complained about how the Ministry of Culture had very little influence on non-state numismatic collections such as Sicily. I mentioned in another discussion that for example the famous Pennisi collection, which is at the Archaeological Museum of Syracuse, is not state-owned, but regional (and Sicily is a region with special status ...).
Yet several state collections are in civic numismatic deposits, such as the Brera collection that is at the Civic Museum of Milan.
I hope to explore this aspect, and in particular how to sell these folles (with a certificate of authenticity and especially "legal origin"?).

[Vincenzo]

Non facciamo confusione!
1)I Musei Civici sono gestiti autonomamente, la proprietà del materiale spetta a loro e di conseguenza i guadagni(biglietti, diritti sulle immagini ecc. ecc.), ma la Tutela, la Conservazione e l'eventuale Alienazione sono e rimangono in gestione Statale.
2)Non vi può essere legge comunale, provinciale, regionale che sia in contrasto con una legge dello Stato(principio delle autonomie e loro rispettive competenze).
Quindi se l'alienazione, la "dismissione" di beni archeologici(rinuncia al vincolo) è vietato(o meglio sottoposto a leggi restrittive) a livello Nazionale, lo è anche a livello locale.

Modificato 28 Luglio, 2013 da Vincenzo