DENARIO BRUTO IDI MARZO

[numa numa]

Dear ACRAF

I'm very grateful for the Easter gift!

Regarding the BM EID MAR, I think we cause some confusion (as much my fault as yours), because there are two pieces in the BM, one false and one genuine.

The old gold EID MAR in the BM, since 1825, is evidently false. It is the first one you pictured.

The second one you picture is known since the 1930s and is genuine. It is also in the BM. It was written up by Herbert A. Cahn in the 1953 Numismatic Congress papers as genuine. It was in a private collection for most of the 20th century, so Crawford never handled it. He saw only a plaster cast in the American Numismatic Society, and he also saw the (evidently false) EID MAR in the British Museum collection (and another false one in, I think, Copenhagen). For this reason, since he never saw a genuine example, he condemned it as false. NAC auctioned this coins in 2008. It was also owned by Harlan J.Berk in Chicago. Michael Winckless bought the coin, and since it had a provenance going back to the 1930s, he donated it (long term loan) to the British Museum. So the coin you illustrate is the new (Winckless-BM) coin, known since the 1930s, and is not the BM's false coin known since 1825. Crawford then looked at it in the BM and now considers it genuine. Of course, when sold by NAC, Roberto Russo and other experts also examined it and are sure that it is genuine. I feel sure that it is genuine, and I don't know of any expert today who considers it anything except genuine.

Andrew

PS - I replied also on the other thread, regarding a comment that Cohen condemned the coin. As Cohen was dead by 1930, it must be the (obviously false) coin which he condemned, not the Cahn-Winckless-BM example. Currently I am not aware of any expert who thinks the Cahn-Winckless-BM is false. Not Crawford. Not Burnett. Not Woytek. Not Russo. Not Cahn. They all think/thought it genuine. The coin does not deserve so much debate, given that every expert who has handled it thinks it to be genuine.

In D. SEAR " The history and coinage of roman imperators 49-27 bC" pag 128 it's reported :

The aureus of EID MAR is unlisted in all the standard works of reference. Two specimens have however been published by Cahn [ie the first in Proceedings .. Paris 1953; the second in QTic 1989]

...

.. In his 1974 publication - Roman Republican Coinage - Crawford decided not to include the aureus and in the Appendix stated: The aureus of Bruts with EID MAR is in my view false... the formal reasons advanced by Cahn (1953) for accepting the piece are without weight and the piece itself invites suspicion; there is a cast of the coin published by Cahn in the ANS collection labelled "forgery Athens" ; another example is listed in D. Christianus - Catalogus Numismatum Antiquorum (copenhagen n.d. page 4 n. 10) in the company of seven other republican gold coins , all false(as per T.V. Buttrey) .

Crawford views on the specimen published in 1989 have not been made known [as the Sear book was published in 1998, possibly Crawford has made thence his views public on this second specimen]

Sear concludes that , albeit with some misgivings, he included the piece in his book with these caveats.

As another specimen (fake) of this aureus exists in the Archeological Museum Florence it would be certainly worthwhile to report a photo of this additional piece.

[Mirko8710]

Scusate se faccio una ripetizione ma io questo non l'avevo ancora visto:

Museo Civico Archeologico di Bologna

[Mirko8710]

E questo:

Harvard Art Museums, Cambridge

Harvard Art Museums/Arthur M. Sackler Museum, Bequest of Frederick M. Watkins

, 1972.244

[Mirko8710]

Museum Of Fine Arts di Boston

PROVENANCE

By 1913: with Brüder Egger, Opernring 7, Vienna, Austria (Auktion 43, April 14ff., lot 62); by 1938: with Ars Classica S.A., 23 Quai du Mont-Blanc, Geneva, Switzerland (Auction 18, October 10, 1938, lot 24); by date unknown: Walter Niggeler Collection; by 1966: with Bank Leu & Co. AG, Bahnhofstrasse 32, Zurich and Münzen und Medaillen AG, Malzgasse 25, Basel, Switzerland (auction of the Walter Niggeler Collection, part 2, Malzgasse 25, Basel, October 21-22, 1966, lot 954); by 1980: with BankLeu & Co AG, Bahnhofstrasse 32, Zurich (Auktion 25, Savoy Hotel - Baur en Ville, Zurich, April 23, 1980, lot 211); by date unknown: Leo Benz Collection; by 1998: with Numismatik Lanz München, Maximilansplatz 10, D-80333 Munich (Auktion 88 of the Leo Benz Collection, November 23, 1998, lot 803); by 2002: with Leu Numismatics Ltd., In Gassen 20, CH-8001, Zurich (Auction 83, Hotel Savoy-Baur en Ville, Poststrasse 12, CH-8001, Zurich, May 6-7, 2002, lot 701); purchased at Auction 83 on behalf of MFA by Harlan J. Berk, Ltd., 31 North Clark Street, Chicago, Illinois 60602; June 26, 2002: purchased by MFA from Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.

[acraf]

sc265571.fpx&obj=iip,1.0&wid=568&cell=568,427&cvt=jpeg.jpg sc265572.fpx&obj=iip,1.0&wid=568&cell=568,427&cvt=jpeg.jpg

Museum Of Fine Arts di Boston

PROVENANCE

By 1913: with Brüder Egger, Opernring 7, Vienna, Austria (Auktion 43, April 14ff., lot 62); by 1938: with Ars Classica S.A., 23 Quai du Mont-Blanc, Geneva, Switzerland (Auction 18, October 10, 1938, lot 24); by date unknown: Walter Niggeler Collection; by 1966: with Bank Leu & Co. AG, Bahnhofstrasse 32, Zurich and Münzen und Medaillen AG, Malzgasse 25, Basel, Switzerland (auction of the Walter Niggeler Collection, part 2, Malzgasse 25, Basel, October 21-22, 1966, lot 954); by 1980: with BankLeu & Co AG, Bahnhofstrasse 32, Zurich (Auktion 25, Savoy Hotel - Baur en Ville, Zurich, April 23, 1980, lot 211); by date unknown: Leo Benz Collection; by 1998: with Numismatik Lanz München, Maximilansplatz 10, D-80333 Munich (Auktion 88 of the Leo Benz Collection, November 23, 1998, lot 803); by 2002: with Leu Numismatics Ltd., In Gassen 20, CH-8001, Zurich (Auction 83, Hotel Savoy-Baur en Ville, Poststrasse 12, CH-8001, Zurich, May 6-7, 2002, lot 701); purchased at Auction 83 on behalf of MFA by Harlan J. Berk, Ltd., 31 North Clark Street, Chicago, Illinois 60602; June 26, 2002: purchased by MFA from Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.

Questo esemplare era già stato illustrato e messo a confronto nel post # 117.

[L. Licinio Lucullo]

La conoscenza di 4 denari ESUBERATI che qui allego , ci da la possibilita' di commentare questi (falsi dell'epoca) e tener conto che la monetazione di denari "EID-MAR" sia probabilmente avvenuta,almeno ché.......,

Serve questo rottame? (se no cancello il post)

Suberato attualmente in vendita da Lanz ebay (oggetto AVU2237), 3,10 g, 17-18 mm

Modificato 19 Giugno, 2013 da L. Licinio Lucullo

[Guest Tugay Emin]

Serve questo rottame? (se no cancello il post)

Suberato attualmente in vendita da Lanz ebay (oggetto AVU2237), 3,10 g, 17-18 mm

Grazie Licinio , anche un rottame ci puo' servire per analizzare questa misteriosa ed affascinante monetazione .Lo scarico e lo inserisco in cartella esuberati ?. Ciao

[acraf]

Concordo con gionnysicily.

Per uno studio sistematico servono anche i "rottami", che possono gettare qualche luce anche sul fenomeno della suberatura e sulla possibile falsificazione.

Anzi chiedo la collaborazione di tutti, compresi anche quelli che hanno la pazienza di consultare le varie vendite ebay, avendo cura di ricuperare le immagini e i dati (come fatto da Licinio Lucullo), per il fatto che poi queste immagini scompaiono......

[grigioviola]

chissà cosa spunterà questo rottamino da lanz... generalmente già spuntano alte di loro le monete di lanz (rispetto altri venditori), questa poi ha qualche peculiarità in più!

comunque sia... è un signor rottame!

[Anita]

Dispongo di questa moneta,(così mi sembra) qualche esperto potrebbe gentilmente indicarmi ove metterla in vendita e come verificare l eventuale prezzo ? Ve ne sarei moto grata

[santone]

Banale riproduzione

Modificato 31 Agosto, 2023 da santone

[skubydu]

Solita riproduzione …

[Tinia Numismatica]

56 minuti fa, Anita dice:

Dispongo di questa moneta,(così mi sembra) qualche esperto potrebbe gentilmente indicarmi ove metterla in vendita e come verificare l eventuale prezzo ? Ve ne sarei moto grata

 

Merendine Parmalat…hanno colpito ancor…

[Vel Saties]

Il 31/8/2023 alle 12:53, Anita dice:

Dispongo di questa moneta,(così mi sembra) qualche esperto potrebbe gentilmente indicarmi ove metterla in vendita e come verificare l eventuale prezzo ? Ve ne sarei moto grata

 

Innanzitutto non si tratta di una moneta ma di un oggetto paramonetale che imita una moneta per motivi di marketing e che non ha mai avuto storicamente alcun tipo di circolazione effettiva.
Si tratta, in effetti, di una (brutta) riproduzione (c'è una "R" di riproduzione) delle merendine mister day della parmalat di un vero denario romano tardorepubblicano. Allego link alla scheda.
Non hanno valore numismatico, solo un interesse collezionistico tra gli interessati ai gadget.
Se non l'hai estratta dalla bustina originale puoi venderla anche a 7-8 euro, se no max 4-5. Ma devi trovare chi te la compra.

Cfr. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/monetaromana/falsi/ParmalatMisterDay/dettaglio.html
Cfr. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/monetaromana/corrisp/arram/bruto.htm

 

Modificato 1 Settembre, 2023 da Vel Saties